[opeth115]

Hello everybody, I have been a long time lurker of this forum and am now having some issues with my 2013 veloster turbo. Let me provide a little backstory first. My engine initially threw a rod going about 35 mph down a side street about 5-6 months ago now. Prior to this the head gasket blew as well and the dealership replaced the HPFP as well as the head gasket. The headgasket was only after first giving the car back without doing anything besides the HPFP, and allowing the car to run dry of coolant on my return trip home. I don't know if this may have lead to the rod being thrown but I don't see how it would have hurt these chances. Regardless, the entire engine was replaced under warranty and I now experience the same similar symptoms as before. Under high RPM and boost levels I get engine knock/ping.

I am having issues locating the source of my problems and any troubleshooting advice will be greatly appreciated. I currently have an 845 FMIC, synapse DV, stock tune (had to remove the BTR canned tune because I was afraid I'd blow another engine with this issue, but it is still happening on stock tune), breather port is vented to atmosphere with a catch can on the PCV, AEM CAI, MBRP catback, DW65-c LPFP and braided fuel line upgrade, and I am running motul XCESS 5-w40 motor oil with stock plugs (I had HKS M45XL's in there both with the BTR tune and without and was experiencing the same issues). Here is a link to a few data logs as well,

https://datazap.me/u/opeth115/log-1504734338?log=0&data=28-37

https://datazap.me/u/opeth115/log-1504576387?log=0&data=10-19

let me know if these data logs do not work for you guys, but i believe datazap.me is the best place for this sort of data. I believe I am also getting quite a bit of knock retard, on cylinder 1 especially, but I am not sure what is regarded normal for these engines. It looks like my Upstream O2 sensor starts dumping fuel when these knock retard events occur, but I do not have a ton of experience reading these types of logs and don't want to misinterpret. Also, idle control looks to activate during my knock retard events for some reason but again i may be misinterpreting. For some reason torque is not recording the actual knocking events though and the same thing seemed to be happening before the engine blew. The knock sensor does work as i have seen it read it just doesn't not seem to happen during these more intense events for whatever reason. With the BTR tune in if I floor the car there is a single loud explosion and the car will die out unless I rev the engine a few times which is why I have removed it. Thanks for any help you guys. If you need more information, or other logs, I can provide whatever is needed!

-Matt

 

[vincejr]

What brand of fuel and octane? Have you been using the techron fuel system cleaner every 6 months or so? You said stock plugs but 2013 stock plugs we're too hot, what brand and heat range do you have in there now?

Checking your logs now...

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[opeth115]

I have had both hks m45XL as well as the stock plugs that hyundai stuck in there after replacing the engine, both produced the same results. I have run the techron fuel cleaner once now since the engine was replaced, and had been doing it in the past as well, although not every 6 months. I am running shell fuel and only run 93 octane. I will be away from the computer for the next hour or two but will then be back. Thanks for the quick reply!

 

[vincejr]

And they put an entirely new engine in last time? So we can rule out internal hard part issues or a warped head... I imagine they reused the turbo tho?

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[opeth115]

And they put an entirely new engine in last time? So we can rule out internal hard part issues or a warped head... I imagine they reused the turbo tho?

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The paperwork states "1-HRM REMAN SHORT ENGINE" as well as "1 HEAD ASSY - CYLINDER" as well as intake/exhaust valves, springs and retainers and new cvvt assemblies so yes I believe so. Nothing about a new turbo though, so it was most likely reused.

edit: this is the part number of the stock plugs I have installed currently - https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Hyundai-18846-08060-Spark-Assembly/dp/B00EQ3G8L2 - but the issues was there with a set of HKS m45XL's as well

 

[trdtoy]

Logs help a lot and make this much easier to problem solve, so I appreciate that.

From the logs, I see you have knock retard mostly in low to mid rpm, with higher boost, higher iat, and higher coolant temps. With lower coolant temps and iat the knock is much less. Also in an area where the stock tune has not made the mixture rich enough for the conditions yet.

So, the issues to eliminate your issues are get an updated stock or trusted afternarket tune, use colder plugs with proper gap(physically check gap before install), lower iats, lower engine coolant temperature.

Since I see most issues on cyl 1 I would swap plugs with cyl 1 and 3 to see if knock follows plug or stays on that cyl. If follows plug then plug related. If stays on cylinder could be an ignition coil issue seen in some of the older cars. Either way this should be an easy fix.

 

[opeth115]

Logs help a lot and make this much easier to problem solve, so I appreciate that.

From the logs, I see you have knock retard mostly in low to mid rpm, with higher boost, higher iat, and higher coolant temps. With lower coolant temps and iat the knock is much less. Also in an area where the stock tune has not made the mixture rich enough for the conditions yet.

So, the issues to eliminate your issues are get an updated stock or trusted afternarket tune, use colder plugs with proper gap(physically check gap before install), lower iats, lower engine coolant temperature.

Since I see most issues on cyl 1 I would swap plugs with cyl 1 and 3 to see if knock follows plug or stays on that cyl. If follows plug then plug related. If stays on cylinder could be an ignition coil issue seen in some of the older cars. Either way this should be an easy fix.

Ok so i will throw in my set of hks m45xl again but I was still getting the issue with these plugs as well. I will triple check gap is set to 0.028 also.

Other then these changes I dont know what to do. I have checked the coil pack resistances and they were all within spec. I will check them again once I get home this afternoon and post back. Also I did more data logging and was able,to log a true knock event not just knock retard. I will post those logs after I look them over as well. Is there a plug I can purchase from autozone that is the proper heat ramge or should,I just use the m45s I currently have?

Edit: got the log up via my phone. Knock event is towards thr end. This was my commute in this morning and I decided to try to get a few good pulls as well. The only knock recorded was the second gear pull towards the end although there is a ton of knock retard scattered throughout the pulls. This was the only pull done in second gear and will almost always result,in knocking.

https://datazap.me/u/opeth115/log-1506110641?log=0&data=28-37

 

[vincejr]

Hey Opeth,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, some things came up.

First and most glaring thing is that your coolant temps are kinda high all the time. Here in FL where it is 95* my coolant temps rarely go over 205*, even on WOT pulls, and spend most of their time 180-195... I noticed some of your coolant temps are at 210* with ambient at 70* and I saw one data point where coolant was at 223* with ambient around 90*. This was after only a short pull to 4500 rpm at no where near full boost… It should not be that high under those conditions.

If you have anything wrong with your cooling system, wrong antifreeze/water ratio, a leak anywhere in the system, then temps like that will not be sustainable and will cause numerous problems.

You also said, that the reason the dealership put a head gasket on, was because the coolant ran dry on you on a road trip? How did you know that the coolant ran dry? I mean, was the radiator and overflow tank both empty? And was the root cause of that coolant loss ever found?

Have you recently checked the radiator level? Are you maybe losing coolant and don’t know…? If there is a leak in the system anywhere, then the coolant in the overflow will not get drawn back into the system when the car cools, so you’ll have visual coolant in the reservoir but end up with an empty radiator.

This is the first thing that I'm noticing... you had a coolant issue, then issues with the head gasket, then detonation enters the picture somewhere, then boom... and now with a new motor, you still have the same detonation issue, so that tells me the real problem has not been solved.

Have you had the rad cap tested and is it holding pressure? For 10 bucks or less, you can just replace it with a new one, which is not a bad idea for a 2013.

Try this test, turn off the AC compressor and turn the heat on maximum. Full fan speed, hottest setting on the dial, turn off recirculate, and use both the dash and floor vents for max air flow. Then retest and datalog to see if the detonation is lessened any. This will pull large amounts of heat out of the system via the heater core and will give some more clues. If you have a thermostat issue and are not getting flow thru the radiator, or a weak water pump, the heater core will still pull heat out and probably make a huge difference in water temps and this will give us some clues to work with.

I'm still looking at your logs so I don't have anything conclusive yet, but, the ECU is definitely reacting, it is HEAVILY pulling out timing advance at the same time that the torque app is showing timing retard being triggered. So much so, that the levels of advance you are left with, are around 0 to 5 degrees BTDC… I even saw one data point that was -3* of timing, which is ridiculous and shouldn’t be happening when doing a pull.

Thus, your timing is far more heavily retarded compared to where I’ve seen OEM tunes run on stock cars with no bolt ons. So the ECU is definitely triggering on something and trying to correct it, but removing timing is not stopping the detonation…

If you have a cooling system issue, then retarding the timing wouldn’t help… Cause you’re likely dealing with a hot spot inside the cylinder. In fact you might be experiencing pre-ignition, which also sounds like detonation, but comes from completely different causes (hot spots, hot plugs, etc). The way you tell the difference, is with pre-ignition, you will be able to see small silvery balls of melted metal on the white insulator of the spark plugs. You’ll have to use a magnifier like a jeweler’s loupe or similar and inspect every one of them.

By the way, how are you noticing the detonation, are you hearing an audible pinging like coins shaking around in a glass jar?

On to some of the other simpler stuff… The plugs you’re running right now are a heat range 6 from a close look at the pictures, unless the number was an 8, it was kinda hard to see. Regardless of what you do, you really should get those out of there, they’re a known problem as they’re too hot. Later models years moved to a heat range 7 and I think even 8. The HKS plugs you have which are heat range 9, would be safer for you to run, the fact that they don’t help your detonation issue (and that you’ve tried a 2nd set already) really just means that the plugs are not the cause of the problem. I’d put the HKS’s back in, just because the stock heat range 6 plugs are bad in their own right and will only exacerbate this problem. I’ve run those exact HKS M45XL’s on a stock tune for a while, and they didn’t foul out on me, so you’ll be fine in the short run.

Your post intercooler intake air temps are 80’s and 90’s almost everywhere, you should not be having detonation issues at this temp, not on a stock tune. Intake temps are OK, not likely the primary cause.

Measured AFR closely follows commanded AFR, nothing glaring here, so the injectors are probably flowing fine. Fuel trims look OK, I’d expect them to be higher for the bolt on’s you have, but, with so much retarded timing, you’re dumping a lot of unburnt fuel into the exhaust, which would cause your fuel trims to shift towards lower numbers anyways, since they’re seeing some extra richness… Fuel rail pressures also look fine so pump and fuel line seem OK.

The glaring stuff is extremely high coolant temps when you do pulls, and those in the logs are short enough that they should not generate that much heat that quick. One of your charts showed a water temp rise from 195 to 205 on a part throttle acceleration from idle to 3K RPMs (must have only lasted 10 seconds) and you weren’t even in boost as you had -9 psi of vacuum… So I’m really thinking cooling system issues.

Try the heater test I mentioned and let us know the results. Also get to the root cause of the initial loss of coolant on that road trip. And have your cooling system inspected fully for leaks, levels and have them look for full flow thru the radiator when fully heated up (temps over 205 are needed to open the coolant thermostat all the way)… might even have them test for combustion byproducts in the coolant just to make sure that new motor doesn’t have a head gasket issue.

Best,
Vince

 

[E9C900A]

Need to swap to a better coolant. Cooler t-stat also helps. After checking for head gasket issues, of course.

 

[TC4Tay]

System might not have been bled correctly either.

 

[vincejr]

System might not have been bled correctly either.

Yes definitely a possibility, our system is notoriously hard to bleed properly. And if allowed to stay like that will lead to a cascade of failures.

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[opeth115]

System might not have been bled correctly either.

Yes definitely a possibility, our system is notoriously hard to bleed properly. And if allowed to stay like that will lead to a cascade of failures.

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Sorry for taking a while to get back here, life got pretty busy, and thanks for all the help so far! I put a set of autolite xp5703 in right now, and need to get some new crush washers for the hks plugs, but will right away. These plugs have stopped the audible detonation I was getting, even with my btr tune I can floor it to redline now with no recorded knock or audible detonation., but I am still getting a ton of knock retard.

I will attempt to rebleed my,collant system also. What coolant do you recommend? Should I just drain and use hyundai coolant, or just try to burp the system first? Do the newer model cars run a colder thermostat I could pick up or is there and aftermarket option?

I will rent a pressure tester and run pressure tests on the coolimg system as well as the heater core test you recommended. I will also just replace the radiator cap to be sure it isnt leaking. I will get back to you guys!

Edit: also the head gasket was replaced initially,because it blew from detonation. This was on the older engine though not the new one. The engine was dry of coolant oce it got to the dealership from draining into the block not a gradual loss over time. I can also see the level in the overflow tank rise an decrease when the engine is hot or cold.
-Matt

 

[E9C900A]

Sorry for taking a while to get back here, life got pretty busy, and thanks for all the help so far! I put a set of autolite xp5703 in right now, and need to get some new crush washers for the hks plugs, but will right away. These plugs have stopped the audible detonation I was getting, even with my btr tune I can floor it to redline now with no recorded knock or audible detonation., but I am still getting a ton of knock retard.

I will attempt to rebleed my,collant system also. What coolant do you recommend? Should I just drain and use hyundai coolant, or just try to burp the system first? Do the newer model cars run a colder thermostat I could pick up or is there and aftermarket option?

I will rent a pressure tester and run pressure tests on the coolimg system as well as the heater core test you recommended. I will also just replace the radiator cap to be sure it isnt leaking. I will get back to you guys!

Edit: also the head gasket was replaced initially,because it blew from detonation. This was on the older engine though not the new one. The engine was dry of coolant oce it got to the dealership from draining into the block not a gradual loss over time. I can also see the level in the overflow tank rise an decrease when the engine is hot or cold.
-Matt

AMSOIL HD coolant.

160° thermostat - NAPA Superstat P/N 530060 (<$10)

Don't use the XP5703 if you're going to use Autolites, get the XP5702 instead. Thicker ground straps and another step colder (8). Suggest filing the tiny protrusion off of the underside of the strap, as they are known to come off and bounce around in the cylinder.

 

[vincejr]

They type of coolant specified for Hyundai should be of the "Phosphated HOAT" type for proper anticorrosion and lubrication of the cooling system components.

Don't use silicated HOAT...

And it's preferred to not mix coolants, as it shortens their life and effectiveness... A full replacement with new coolant is preferred if adding anything more than 0.5-1.0 quarts

http://www.underhoodservice.com/correcting-coolant-confusion/

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[E9C900A]

AMSOIL HD is POAT and is superior to HOAT in every way.

Read the Anti-Scale section:
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...reeze-and-coolant/?code=ANTHD1G-EA?zo=1542851

 

[vincejr]

AMSOIL HD is POAT and is superior to HOAT in every way.

Read the Anti-Scale section:
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...reeze-and-coolant/?code=ANTHD1G-EA?zo=1542851

Thanks for the info brotha. Checking it out.

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[opeth115]

Hello guys, so this morning during,my,commute I tried to play with the heater settings and see if they had any effevt on knock or coolant temps.

Last night I burped the system and noticed that my radiator fans did not appear to kick on until my coolant temps hit 204 degrees. Also this is when I saw the coolant circulate and,I would have to fill a little bit. I thought that the fan was supposed to come on at a colder temp, about 180?, but maybe I'm wrong?

Also with the heater running at idle after my cummute the coolant temp sits at around 195. With it off it will cycle up to around 204 then it circulates and cools to about 190 and repeats.

While driving with the heater turned on it did not seem to effect knock retard at all. I was still getting a ton of it across all four cylinders the whole commute, and I actually had audible knock with it turned on (the coins in a can sound). That noise disappeared until that test after regapping and replacing the plugs to xp5703's.

I'm gona pick up a new radiator cap and a set of crush washers for my hks plugs today. The coolant overflow tank cap is also not a tight fitting cap. It sits with barely and sealing pressure on the tank. Could this be causing issue?

And sitting here right now looking at my short term fuel trim it is bouncing consistently from about -7.8 to 10.2 back and forth over and over again. Something else I have noticed is at times my vacuume seems to drop to about mid 17s and sits there at idle. While at other times and other driving scenarios at idle it will sit around 19-20.

 

[Flareon]

Coolant over flow isn't a pressurized system. So that's fine.
Fans are coming on at a normal temp.
180 is when the thermostat opens. It seem your cooling system is doing its job.
Have you cleaned your intercooler?

 

[opeth115]

Coolant over flow isn't a pressurized system. So that's fine.
Fans are coming on at a normal temp.
180 is when the thermostat opens. It seem your cooling system is doing its job.
Have you cleaned your intercooler?

I have never cleaned my intercooler. I want to swap for the amsoil hd coolant I was recommended so is this something I should try during the swap? What is the process to clean out your intercooler? Do I just flush it through with distilled water?

Also, what is normal coolant operating temp if it appears to be operating normally? I thought 190-200 at idle was high since the other user posted his never rose above 180 really. So if my temps are really that high how is the cooling system doing its job? What do you think I should look into if you feel its operating,normally?

 

[Flareon]

I don't know the rating on our thermostat but the fans should be set to come on shortly after the stat opens. I think ours is 195? Or 185. Most stock vehicles don't see fans till over 200 degrees.

Oh and gasoline, parts cleaner, acetone. All are good To clean with.