[CrazySte]

HYUNDAI: "Sliding Car Button" Disables the ESC Entirely, only ABS & EBD remain Active

A FEW WEEKS AGO I HAVE OPENED A THREAD ON THIS FORUM ASKING IF SOMEONE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THE "SLIDING CAR BUTTON" DID ON THE VELOSTER TURBO DASHBOARD... A PRETTY ANGRY CONVERSATION CAME OUT OF MY QUESTION AND I WAS GETTING NO ANSWERS (ANSWERS ARRIVED MUCH LATER), SO LAST WEEK I DECIDED TO SEND AN EMAIL TO HYUNDAI AND YOU WILL BE SURPRISED BY THE SATISFYING RESPONSE THEY GAVE ME:

THIS IS MY EMAIL
""" Hello,
my name is Stefano and I am looking to buy a Veloster Turbo, but the dealership has been unable to answer my question fully:

On the Dashboard of the Veloster Turbo, right below the GPS, there is a button with a Sliding Car.

WHAT DOES THAT BUTTON EXACTLY DO?

I am interested in knowing if by pressing Such Button i can disable both Traction Control and Stability Control as well, and if not, if it has any differencies in sensitivity or type of actions that the VSM will eventually perform.

Due to unpleasant past experiences, i do not want to drive a car with an Active Electronic Stability Control (NEVER AGAIN) i did some driving courses and i found out that my drive style is incompatible with ESC... i am fine with ABS and TCS, but anything that Steers the Car without my personal input, scares me and makes me feel unsafe.

On other cars such as the Subaru BRZ i know for a fact that you can disable such feature with a Similar Button (tested) and also on my old Mazda RX-8 i used to turn off the ESC every time i got in the car, so... can i do the same on the Veloster or is there a modification to do to obtain such result?

I know it may sound as a weird request, but for me and my safety is extremely important to have a car i Drive and not a Software that does it for me without understanding what i am actually doing.

Thank you for the info
REGARDS
"""


HERE IS HYUNDAI RESPONSE



Dear Stefano,
thank's for your interest into our Veloster Turbo, we hope that our technical team will be able to satisfy any of your interests as we do understand that different drivers have different preferences and driving needs.

The Electronic Stability control (ESC) system is designed to stabilize the vehicle in situation that are believe to be critical.

The Electronic Stability control system is designed to stabilize the vehicle during cornering maneuvers. ESC checks where you are steering and where the vehicle is actually going by an accelerometer sensor installed in the center of the car near the gear selector lever.

The Electronic Stability control is a different system from all the others because it is the only one that works as an active system, meaning that it does actions that are not directly required by the driver, to correct what is assumed to be a driver mistake.

While ABS and TCS are systems that enter in action only to reduce an excess of pedal pressing by the driver (for instance when the driver presses too hard the Brake pedal, an action that would cause the wheels to lock and lose control, the ABS enters in action and reduces the brakes caliper pressure enough to allow the wheels to keep rotating), the ESC is capable of applying the brakes even when the driver is not actually pressing the brake pedal, an action that is known to be frustrating for some drivers.

The ESC applies the brakes at individual wheels and intervenes in the engine management system to stabilize the vehicle in what is assumed to be an imminent accident situation where the driver is panicking and losing control of the car.

The ESC is a software based system that is designed to work based on what are considered to be the common driving skills of the majority of drivers to correct what are the common driving errors committed by most drivers.

At Hyundai we understand that many drivers find these active actions irritating, and especially in sports cars like the Veloster Turbo, is to be expected that drivers will require to do some performance actions that are not contemplated by the ESC software, that's why we decided to put the "ESC OFF" button on the dashboard of all our sports model.

Due to law regulations, the ESC must be present on all vehicles, but the law understands also that even though the majority of drivers prefers to drive with an active ESC, some drivers prefer to keep such system de-activated as it would not understand correctly the intentions of the driver causing a more dangerous situation.

Some manufacturers prefer to put an ESC switch that either makes the ESC Active or Passive: as explained before, when the ESC is Active, it can decide to apply brakes even if the driver is not pressing the brake pedal, in some cars, when the ESC OFF button is pressed, the ESC is actually still on, but in Passive mode, meaning that the ESC enters in action only if the driver is pressing the brake pedal.

On the Veloster the ESC OFF button turns off completely the Electronic Stability control, letting the driver experience the car performance at it's fullest without electronic intrusions.


Keep in mind that the Electronic Stability Control (ESC) system is an electronic system designed to help the driver maintain vehicle control under adverse conditions, such as snow and ice, that's in fact why the ESC was invented: to create a snow drivable car.
Eventually with the years the ESC became an always present system rather than a feature to turn on only when needed.

WARNING: ESC it is not a substitute for safe driving practices. Factors including speed, road conditions and driver steering input can all affect whether ESC will be effective in preventing a loss of control. It is still your responsibility to drive and corner at reasonable speeds and to leave a sufficient margin of safety.

When you are cornering at a fast speed or doing a quick avoidance maneuver, you may hear a “tik-tik’’ sound from the brakes, or feel a corresponding sensation in the brake pedal. This is normal and it means your ESC is in action.

NOTICE

A click sound may be heard in the engine compartment when the vehicle begins to move after the engine is started. These conditions are normal and indicate that the Electronic Stability Control System is functioning properly.

ESC operation


ESC ON condition

When the ignition is turned ON, ESC and ESC OFF indicator lights illuminate for approximately 3 seconds, then ESC is turned on.
Press the ESC OFF button for at least half a second after turning the ignition ON to turn ESC off. (ESC OFF indicator will illuminate). To turn the ESC on, press the ESC OFF button (ESC OFF indicator light will go off).
When starting the engine, you may hear a slight ticking sound. This is the ESC performing an automatic system self-check and does not indicate a problem.

When operating

When the ESC is in operation, ESC indicator light blinks.

When the ESC is in operation, ESC indicator light blinks.

When the Electronic Stability Control is operating properly, you can feel a slight pulsation in the vehicle. This is only the effect of brake control and indicates nothing unusual.
When moving out of the mud or driving on a slippery road, pressing the accelerator pedal may not cause the engine rpm (revolutions per minute) to increase.

ESC operation off

ESC OFF state

To cancel ESC operation, press the ESC OFF button (ESC OFF indicator light illuminates).
If the ignition switch is turned to LOCK position when ESC is off, ESC remains off. Upon restarting the engine, the ESC will automatically turn on again.

Indicator light

Indicator light

When ignition switch is turned to ON, the indicator light illuminates, then goes off if the ESC system is operating normally.

The ESC indicator light blinks whenever ESC is operating or illuminates when ESC fails to operate.

The ESC OFF indicator light comes on when the ESC is turned off with the button.

CAUTION

Driving with varying tire or wheel sizes may cause the ESC system to malfunction. When replacing tires, make sure they are the same size as your original tires, if you desire to change the wheels and tires size, you should contact a Hyundai dealer to have the ESC re-calibrated for your new grip conditions.



ESC OFF usage

When driving

ESC should remain on for daily driving whenever possible.
To turn ESC off while driving, press the ESC OFF button while driving on a flat road surface.

WARNING

Never press the ESC OFF button while ESC is operating (ESC indicator light blinks).

If ESC is turned off while ESC is operating, the vehicle may slip out of control.

NOTICE

• When operating the vehicle on a dynamometer, ensure that the ESC is turned off (ESC OFF light illuminated).
• Turning the ESC off does not affect ABS & EBD or brake system operation.



ABS & EBD are considered passive systems and enter in action only when a sure moment of accident is imminent: the ABS (Antilock Brake System) enters in function only when one or more tires are blocked due to an excess of brake pedal pressure, while the EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution), distributes the brake force between the front and the rear axles brake calipers;
NO left to right brake distribution is made while the ESC is OFF.

Both this system are proven to not be invasive in performance driving and will only function in conditions where the panic situation is a sure factor and the driver error must be corrected


We hope this satisfies all your curiosity and we look forward seeing you soon in one of our showrooms for a test drive.



Hyundai Worldwide



~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

As some of you already know, i can't stand driving a Car with the Active ESC, so it was mandatory for me to have the possibility of disabling it... in the past i went as far as asking the Dealer to just disconnect the Accelerometer Sensor to simply kill the ESC... i am glad that Hyundai kept in mind those like me that don't feel comfortable driving with such a powerful system active, and added a nice switch to simply shut it off.

I will probably go tomorrow to do a Test drive
BYE EVERYBODY

 

[VTDawg]

Thus this morning I decided to do a super fast U turn which therefore I heard a ticking noise and my breaks feel very weird.... I know it works yay!!!!! Thanks for this awesome informative e-mail... now that I know what this all does

 

[CrazySte]

Well, now you should try to do the same maneuver in a parking lot with the ESC OFF... and see which one is more fun ;-)

And if you have snow around... it will be even funner!

 

[Stone Axe]

I'm not surprised at all.

ESC/ECT is required on all US cars due to a Federal regulation. Its purpose is to keep your car from swapping ends on the highway - which is the leading cause of death in a car now.

Yes, you can turn it off. No, ABS et al aren't turned off - and can't be turned off.

But really, you can't drive a car with ESC/ECT turned on? You routinely exceed traction and directional stability during daily driving that the ESC/ECT is too intrusive?

 

[CrazySte]

Yes, you can turn it off. No, ABS et al aren't turned off - and can't be turned off.

But really, you can't drive a car with ESC/ECT turned on? You routinely exceed traction and directional stability during daily driving that the ESC/ECT is too intrusive?

Hello,
well the point is that ESC intervenes even anticipating the error, and that's why it really bothers me almost every day.

In the daily drive, it's not that it bother me badly, but if i am making a right turn and i hear the tires squeek, i do not mind it even if the cal slips a couple of inches... it happens, nothing to be worried about.

Don't take me wrong, i am not a Psycho driver as some tried to imply in the past... i do not speed in inhabited zones, my biggest fear is a kid that pops out right few feet in front of my car following a ball and in school zones i normally drive slower than the posted speed limit.

BUT, since i live in a pretty rural area and i drive on roads in the middle of nowhere with fields on both sides of the road... well, when i am there i do like to enjoy some happy driving... i drive a Honda Fit and quite often i had the back end stepping out on me and i had to control it.

AGAIN... i don't do it with others, if i see a car a mile down the road, i already slow down, that's the advantage of driving in the middle of the nowhere country... and when i take a 90degrees turn i like to let loose the traction wheels by stomping on the throttle (yeah... i change tires quite often).

That said, these are just little... playful games i like to play, but the point is that my instinct makes me react really quick.

I have tested it with the company car i was given in Italy... i counter steered when i felt it slipping off, but about half second later the ESC engaged and considered my counter steer as a curve i was trying to make, so it basically turned the car right away sending me into a field.

And that time, it was not done on purpose, the car slid, i reacted, the ESC misinterpreted my quick reaction.

Just for the sake of the argument, i tried something similar when i had the Mazda RX-8... with the ESC ON, i was on the rain and i did a turn by giving some heavy throttle, i was expecting the ESC to engage, but my instinct made me counter steer right away and the ESC made it worse for me as it took me the other way compared to where i wanted to go.

There is some improvements on the way tho... Mitsubishi, on the Lancer Evo FQ had 2 modes of ESC, one of which understands the drifting and helps you control it, now there is also Alfa Romeo that in it's cars installed a 3 Dial ESC configurations... maybe with the time, Car manufacturers will start working more into systems that can be easily adapted to all the drive styles.

As of now, i feel more safe just turning it off.

As far as the ABS... yeah, it's a good system, but if you go in northern Europe countries, where there is always snow, ABS is calibrated differently, because as much as it helps maintaining directionality, it actually doesn't understand that to stop on ICE, a slight blockage of the Wheels is better, in fact, for speeds below 10Km/h the ABS self disengages and blocks the wheels, this causes a small mountain of snow to form in front of the tires and effectively stop the car.

Personally, i would make mandatory a switch that activates this "snow mode" on all the cars

And i would make mandatory the ESC OFF Switch to at least make the ESC work in "Passive Mode" rather than "Active"
REGARDS

 

[The Mackies]

quick question OP, Have you driven the VT yet ? the system really isnt that intrusive at all.

 

[MB_VT]

I don't think the intrusiveness of the ESC is his concern. He is more concerned with the computer making the "wrong" judgement call and send him into a ditch when he counter steers to correct an oversteer or something like that. See the following video at 4:40 mark for an example. It can even caught a pro by surprise and one would assume that Tiff Needell knows what he is doing.

 

[CrazySte]

YES

Finally somebody that understands the problem!

This Video is the best explanation of what the ESC can do to a Driver that Drives a Car to it's limits.

OK, i am not a professional Car Pilot, but i do Race SuperBikes and even on Motorcycles i kinda feel the same way since it's not a news to me to feel my back end slide out while i am down on a Corner.

SO, it is fundamental for me to feel in full control of my Vehicle

Thank's for the Video... i haven't seen it before, but it is a great demo of a Danger that many Drivers do not understand

quick question OP, Have you driven the VT yet ? the system really isnt that intrusive at all.

Well, i do understand your question, and i was actually planning on going to the dealership today, but i got held up for work, but in any case:
- do you seriously think during a test drive of a car i have never drove before i am going to be able to push it enough to get the ESC engage or even better, tell the dealer dude that sits beside me to hold on while i turn off the ESC and make a slide with the car without crashing it?

I seriously doubt it... i mean... i do push the car during test drives, but as much as the dealer dudes tend to get scared when i drive, there i no way i get to the limit that the car can stand... so going to test drive the car is almost pointless, because it takes me quite a bit of driving and testing before i get to make the car do exactly what i want, and if only then i find out that the car doesn't react the way i want, it's too late to give it back


REGARDS

 

[The Mackies]

wasnt trying to offend ya mate just think its odd, I thrash the crap out of any car i`m going to buy and subject it to what I will subject it to daily whilst on a test drive. the dealer cant say much if ya have the cash and they are insured for this kind of thing. I absolutely hammered the toyota 86 when i test drove it and LOVED that car. mayeb look at one of them if ya wanna be sliding everywhere because a front wheel drive car is far from a drifters best friend.

 

[CrazySte]

wasnt trying to offend ya mate just think its odd, I thrash the crap out of any car i`m going to buy and subject it to what I will subject it to daily whilst on a test drive. the dealer cant say much if ya have the cash and they are insured for this kind of thing. I absolutely hammered the toyota 86 when i test drove it and LOVED that car. mayeb look at one of them if ya wanna be sliding everywhere because a front wheel drive car is far from a drifters best friend.

No worries man, you did not offend me at all, i was just trying to clear up that despite my Crazy Nick Name, i am not that Crazy lOl!

Anyway, i test drove the Veloster... both Standard and Turbo... the Turbo surely has a great performance, i liked it a lot, and it handles very well (ESC OFF Obviously)

Coming out of the Loop to enter a Highway, i had a minor Spin from the Inside Wheel, bot nothing major, and was totally controllable.

The dealer dude was hanging from everywhere in the Car... i think he lost about 10 years of life ans i drove around one of the curvy roads i like... and i really wasn't pushing that that hard... i still don't know the car, PLUS it's not even mine yet.


ONLY DEFECT FOUND: the Steering is not as responsive as i expected... on the standard it's just slow, on the Turbo, there is a lag of a fraction of a second that felt weird when i was trying quick cornering.

Other than that... the car is a GO!

FIRST i need to sell my Car, then I will start looking around and see what dealer treats me best...


REGARDS


P.S.: at the moment i am trying to figure out what Performance Parts i will need to buy...

Definitely a CatBack Exhaust, the Sound was really upsetting

I will get a StrutBar, i heard Hyundai makes one, and more than likely, i will go for it

Lastly, i am undecided if i will get it a Cool Air Intake or if i just swap out the Air Filter with a more Performance one... the AirBox actually does already have a kinda nice system to it with the dual ports, out of which one opens only when needed... so... 3 things... that's not much!

 

[Stone Axe]

OK, that video explains a lot about your concern. If the VT's ECT worked like that I would be concerned too. I get it now.

But the VT's ECT does not work like that. It works like all the modern cars ECT work - it lets you avoid an impact in your lane but keeps you out of the ditch. When you push the VT too hard and it gets in to a position where it is skidding and pushing for more than a second or two it cuts the throttle back a fair bit and pulses the inside wheel(s) brakes until it puts you back in the direction you were pointing and you can not swap ends. If you take the VT at high speed on the highway and radically jerk the steering wheel it will let you change lanes but after that it won't let you go in to the ditch or cross the median and slows you way down.

The VT's ECT is not the kind of traction control that high end cars have. You can spin the front tires for a second or two all you want off the line - you can turn in hard in a tight corner, rev the engine hard and drop the clutch in 2nd and spin the front tire(s) out of the corner - again for a second or two. After that the ECT kicks in quite intrusively and cuts the throttle a fair bit and literally bangs one or all of the brakes independently to keep you off the curbs and in your lane. You quickly learn how much "fun" you can have before the ECT kicks in. Most of the time though it catches you by surprise and does what it is supposed to do and before you stop puckering you are in your lane and the back on the throttle before you think about it.

With the ECT turned off I have found that it is a little faster and the little remaining stuttery hesitation from the turbo is gone. So maybe there is some traction control component to the ECT and it is sensing the hard tires because the 0-60 times with soft tires are much better for the VT. And it is a little more fun with the ECT turned off because you can use a heavy throttle application to pull you around in a tight turn. But if you push it too hard you are on your own and you can push it in to a curb. The weird thing is that I've only hit the rev limiter with the ECT turned off - and you will find the rev limiter quite unpleasant.

Thanks for posting in this forum. I've enjoyed this discussion and I hope that I provided some information that you have found useful.

 

[UHF3]

The dealer dude was hanging from everywhere in the Car... i think he lost about 10 years of life ans i drove around one of the curvy roads i like... and i really wasn't pushing that that hard... i still don't know the car, PLUS it's not even mine yet.

Gave my salesman a good scare too. He knew I was from out of town. But, didn't know I lived half mile from the dealership for a few years. My test drive was a night and it was pitch black out. He instructs me to drive up the highway a bit, then we turn off onto a side road. Then onto another that's barely two cars wide with 3 foot ditches on each side that cuts a winding path though a mix of country backwoods and fields. He didn't know that I had driven it before and knew it very well. So, I crack it open in third gear and go blasting down this maze and I see him reach up and grasp the door pull. I calmly said; "Don't worry, I'm not gonna kill us tonight." Poor kid just turned 22. We got back to the dealership and when we stepped out of the car and I mentioned that something smelled like it was burning and how it would probably piss off the sales manager. We both had a good laugh.

ONLY DEFECT FOUND: the Steering is not as responsive as i expected... on the standard it's just slow, on the Turbo, there is a lag of a fraction of a second that felt weird when i was trying quick cornering.

The lag does take some getting used to. But like anything, you quickly adapt.



P.S.: at the moment i am trying to figure out what Performance Parts i will need to buy...

Definitely a CatBack Exhaust, the Sound was really upsetting

Custom, Jun BL, Magnaflow or the yet to be released Turbo XS. Did I miss any?

I will get a StrutBar, i heard Hyundai makes one, and more than likely, i will go for it

There's better than factory out there. Pierce Motorsports

Lastly, i am undecided if i will get it a Cool Air Intake or if i just swap out the Air Filter with a more Performance one... the AirBox actually does already have a kinda nice system to it with the dual ports, out of which one opens only when needed... so... 3 things... that's not much!

Either TurbosSocks or Injen for the CAI. There is a K&N drop-in PN 33-2472 if you decide to go that route.


Personally can't wait for a reflash to be released.

 

[TheBlackBass]

Anyway, i test drove the Veloster... both Standard and Turbo... the Turbo surely has a great performance, i liked it a lot, and it handles very well (ESC OFF Obviously)

FYI the throttle is limited at 50% by the ECU until 1000 miles or so.

 

[UHF3]

FYI the throttle is limited at 50% by the ECU until 1000 miles or so.

Where did you hear that, the internet? .....uhhh....bonjour...

 

[Stone Axe]

Without a doubt the VT is limited for the first 1,000-1,200 miles. Ask anybody here. Mine definitely was limited at first. I don't know if it is limited by 50% at first - but it is limited during the break-in period.

 

[MB_VT]

FYI the throttle is limited at 50% by the ECU until 1000 miles or so.

I can assure you that it is absolutely not true. I had three separate test drives before I finally decided on the VT. No sales person were with me in any of the test drives. Trust me I really explored the potential of the demo which had less than 100km on the odometer.

Alternatively I can plug in an OBDII computer which has throttle position reading on a car with less than 1000 miles. It will go to 100%.

 

[MB_VT]

ONLY DEFECT FOUND: the Steering is not as responsive as i expected... on the standard it's just slow, on the Turbo, there is a lag of a fraction of a second that felt weird when i was trying quick cornering.

Other than that... the car is a GO!

FIRST i need to sell my Car, then I will start looking around and see what dealer treats me best...


REGARDS


P.S.: at the moment i am trying to figure out what Performance Parts i will need to buy...

Definitely a CatBack Exhaust, the Sound was really upsetting

I will get a StrutBar, i heard Hyundai makes one, and more than likely, i will go for it

Lastly, i am undecided if i will get it a Cool Air Intake or if i just swap out the Air Filter with a more Performance one... the AirBox actually does already have a kinda nice system to it with the dual ports, out of which one opens only when needed... so... 3 things... that's not much!

I know exactly the vagueness or lag that you are talking about. I know exactly how that can be fixed or eliminated by at least 95%.

First, you need better tires. My summer performance tires eliminated most of the lag. I suspect it is the extra grip and stiffer sidewall. Second, I added the factory front strut bar. It also noticeably helped with the steering response. The difference between my summer setup and stock factory setup are night and day in terms of steering feel and the communication.

It is still not a FR-S/BRZ and it never drive like one. But for the same money the VT will sit 4 adults comfortably, carry more cargo, better equipped with navi, panorama roof, keyless entry/start, rearview camera, leather, better sound system and the list goes on.

On the other hand I am adding FR-S as a second weekend car if they make a turbo version. The FR-S is hell of car, a true driving machine. If they don't make a turbo version, I probably go with the C7 Corvette. There is always room for a front mid engine rear wheel drive car in my garage.

 

[MB_VT]

OK, that video explains a lot about your concern. If the VT's ECT worked like that I would be concerned too. I get it now.

But the VT's ECT does not work like that. It works like all the modern cars ECT work - it lets you avoid an impact in your lane but keeps you out of the ditch. When you push the VT too hard and it gets in to a position where it is skidding and pushing for more than a second or two it cuts the throttle back a fair bit and pulses the inside wheel(s) brakes until it puts you back in the direction you were pointing and you can not swap ends. If you take the VT at high speed on the highway and radically jerk the steering wheel it will let you change lanes but after that it won't let you go in to the ditch or cross the median and slows you way down.

The VT's ECT is not the kind of traction control that high end cars have. You can spin the front tires for a second or two all you want off the line - you can turn in hard in a tight corner, rev the engine hard and drop the clutch in 2nd and spin the front tire(s) out of the corner - again for a second or two. After that the ECT kicks in quite intrusively and cuts the throttle a fair bit and literally bangs one or all of the brakes independently to keep you off the curbs and in your lane. You quickly learn how much "fun" you can have before the ECT kicks in. Most of the time though it catches you by surprise and does what it is supposed to do and before you stop puckering you are in your lane and the back on the throttle before you think about it.

With the ECT turned off I have found that it is a little faster and the little remaining stuttery hesitation from the turbo is gone. So maybe there is some traction control component to the ECT and it is sensing the hard tires because the 0-60 times with soft tires are much better for the VT. And it is a little more fun with the ECT turned off because you can use a heavy throttle application to pull you around in a tight turn. But if you push it too hard you are on your own and you can push it in to a curb. The weird thing is that I've only hit the rev limiter with the ECT turned off - and you will find the rev limiter quite unpleasant.

Thanks for posting in this forum. I've enjoyed this discussion and I hope that I provided some information that you have found useful.

I have to say that I am fairly impressed by the TC and ESP calibration of the VT. Based on my own experience the TC cuts in right before you are about to have major traction lost and nasty wheel hops. Now, I leave it on all the time because I much rather have the TC kick in than wheel hops. Also goes to show you how serious the wheel hops are on the VT.

The ESP probably saved me once or twice when I had to make an emergency maneuver. Having said that, I have no idea how the ESP will react if counter steer to correct an oversteer in the Veloster, which is probably what happened with Tiff. The ESP was trying to point the car to where the driver is steering towards, rather than recognizing that the driver is steering to correct the oversteer.

On the VT, I really don't care if I can turn the ESP completely off. It's a sporty hot hatch, not a true sports car.
On a true RWD sports, it's a different story. I must be able to turn it off completely or else it's a deal breaker. What's the point of RWD if I can't have a bit of fun drifting around the track.

 

[VelosterDom]

i only have one button for this.... the traction control button by the heater for the passenger seat, where is the other one???

 

[vicng87]

Who says you have to drift only on a track?

who says you need to know how to drive to drift?