Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-30 Full Synthetic Motor Oil

57349 Views 264 Replies 51 Participants Last post by DedMemBRaiNE, Sep 17, 2017

TreeHugger74

Discussion Starter · May 5, 2016

Walmart seems to be out of stock of the 5 quart jug for $27.97, anyone find it for that price anymore...anywhere?

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E9C900A

· #181 · May 27, 2017 (Edited)

Reading one of the latest LSPI research papers on SAE confirms what I said earlier...

The level of Ca is the critical factor while Zn and Mo levels both only have meaningful positive impact when Ca is high (nearly no impact when Ca is low).

High Mg content and low Ca content worked best on low volatility (NOACK%) oils, but strangely, equal amounts of Mg and Ca worked best on high volatility oils.

The best (most anti-LSPI) oils all had low Ca content of ~1000ppm (which are rather rare to find) and went from:
low Zn, high Mo, low P (phosphorus)
high Zn, low Mo, high P
high Zn, high Mo, high P
low Zn, low Mo, low P

The top 3 were nearly identical in anti-LSPI properties (extremely low number of LSPI events), while the fourth had quite a few more LSPI events, but still an acceptably low number.

The worst oils all had high Ca content (~3000ppm like most common oils) and went from:
high Zn, low Mo, high P (least LSPI events)
high Zn, high Mo, high P
low Zn, high Mo, low P
low Zn, low Mo, low P (most LSPI events)

So for high Ca oils (most prevalent), Zn (ZDDP) has much more of a positive effect on LSPI prevention than Mo.

They used all Group III base oils, but did not distinguish between three main stocks.

They also did not correlate viscosity and volatility with the test oil matrices showing chemical composition (akin to a BlackStone sheet) and LSPI event results, so that was disappointing. Some were 5W-30 and some were 0W-16, which might have given more insight on how all the factors correlate.

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vincejr

· #182 · May 27, 2017

E9C900A said:
Reading one of the latest LSPI research papers on SAE confirms what I said earlier...

The level of Ca is the critical factor while Zn and Mo levels both only have meaningful positive impact when Ca is high (nearly no impact when Ca is low).

High Mg content and low Ca content worked best on low volatility (NOACK%) oils, but strangely, equal amounts of Mg and Ca worked best on high volatility oils.

The best (most anti-LSPI) oils all had low Ca content of ~1000ppm (which are rather rare to find) and went from:
low Zn, high Mo, low P (phosphorus)
high Zn, low Mo, high P
high Zn, high Mo, high P
low Zn, low Mo, low P

The worst oils all had high Ca content (~3000ppm like most common oils) and went from:
high Zn, low Mo, high P (least LSPI events)
high Zn, high Mo, high P
low Zn, high Mo, low P
low Zn, low Mo, low P (most LSPI events)

So for high Ca oils (most prevalent), Zn (ZDDP) has much more of a positive effect on LSPI prevention than Mo.

They used all Group III base oils, but did not distinguish between three main stocks.

They also did not correlate viscosity and volatility with the test oil matrices showing chemical composition (akin to a BlackStone sheet) and LSPI event results, so that was disappointing. Some were 5W-30 and some were 0W-16, which might have given more insight on how all the factors correlate.

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Sounds like you were able to find the research paper I found then lost... Cool thanks for this.

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E9C900A

· #183 · May 27, 2017 (Edited)

Right; so to briefly summarize, Mo does have a small positive anti-LSPI effect when Ca content is high, but ZDDP has even more of a positive anti-LSPI effect when Ca content is high.

Still, it's best to find a low Ca oil that is ester-based or PAO-based and if using a high volatility/NOACK oil (the majority out there, above 8-9%), ensure that Mg and Ca contents are nearly equal for best anti-LSPI properties, with high Mo for better anti-wear properties and some ZDDP for good measure.

vincejr

· #184 · May 27, 2017

E9C900A said:
Right, so to briefly summarize, Mo does have a small positive effect when Ca content is high, but ZDDP has even more of a positive effect.

When discussing LSPI yep.

Just don't discount Mo's contribution to film strength in high loading, high temp situations.

Thanks for the summary.

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E9C900A

· #185 · May 27, 2017 (Edited)

See edited summary post. High Mo for anti-wear is definitely a great thing.

Just put QSUD 0W-20 in my 5.7L, so we'll see how it does.

vincejr

· #186 · May 27, 2017

E9C900A said:
See edited post.

Ya didn't need to edit it, nothing negative was implied, but that's cool thanks.

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E9C900A

· #187 · May 27, 2017

You know me, I edit early and often until satisfactory.

vincejr

· #188 · May 27, 2017

E9C900A said:
You know me, I edit early and often until satisfactory.

Lol, one thing did you mean to say equal amounts of Ca and Mg? Or did you mean to say P and Mg? That would be a lot of Mg on a high Ca oil otherwise...

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E9C900A

· #189 · May 27, 2017 (Edited)

Ca and Mg. You're right for high Ca oils, but for low Ca oils it should be more viable. If you can find them.

Oil chemistry has to advance more quickly to respond to scenarios like LSPI. That's why making hybrids combining the best attributes of different oils usually makes the best anti-LSPI oil. Still looking for that perfect combination.

Then there is the matter of how well an oil controls deposits, which is another aspect I just found a new metric on, but will take a long time before it takes root as a standard metric.

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vincejr

· #190 · May 27, 2017

E9C900A said:
Ca and Mg. You're right for high Ca oils, but for low Ca oils it should be more viable. If you can find them.

Oil chemistry has to advance more quickly to respond to scenarios like LSPI. That's why making hybrids combining the best attributes of different oils usually makes the best anti-LSPI oil. Still looking for that perfect combination.

Then there is the matter of how well an oil controls deposits, which is another aspect I just found some a new metric on, but will take a long time before it takes root as a standard metric.

Gotcha, if you can find a low Ca then get Mg at similar levels.

Will be hard cause everyone is using Ca as the primary cleaning detergent from what I understand.

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E9C900A

· #191 · May 27, 2017 (Edited)

Only if the volatility/NOACK is above ~9%. A lot of manufacturers don't report this metric. Lowest I've found is 6% for several Red Line oils, that are ester-based and have high flashpoint temps.

Here's a very low mileage UOA for RL 30WT racing oil, my base for hybrid concoctions.

I usually cut it with CERMA oil (50/50 mix) which by design is not supposed to have any detergents/dispersants, but I've never seen a VOA of it to confirm. Maybe I should give BS some CERMA oil samples for VOA analysis to see what's what.

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vincejr

· #192 · May 30, 2017

I found the research paper I'll see if I can upload it when I get on my next train.

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vincejr

· #193 · May 30, 2017 (Edited)

3

2017 Anti LSPI Oil Patent Paper

Here's the report I found, shows formulas for ratios of additives that produced the lowest LSPI in their tests. Looks like it's actually a patent application submitted in just January of this year (2017).

The goal of formula X is to get a combination where X = -1 or lower, preferably -1.5, below -1.5 the incidence of LSPI was reduced to nearly 0%

In short, the presence of Ca (calcium) and Mg (magnesium) increase LSPI where as Mo (moly) and P (phosphorous) do the opposite and both decrease LSPI. However my understanding is that Ca is needed as a primary detergent and anti rust compound.

There is a 2nd equation involving Ca, Mg (both metal cleaners/anti-rust) and N (nitrogen, an ashless dispersant) and are related to how clean the oil keeps the engine by inhibiting rust and keeping combustion byproducts in suspension in the oil.

It can be seen through careful study that these two equations need to be balanced against each other as they seem to oppose each other in a low LSPI oil additive package. Hence probably why this issue has been around for so long.

I have not investigated the other formulas in the paper that the result of X has to balance against. There is a lot of research to digest here. I've attached the full paper and two screenshots relevant to my comments here.

View attachment US patent anti-LSPI oil 2017.pdf

Text Line Plot Font Design

Text Font Number Document

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E9C900A

· #194 · May 31, 2017 (Edited)

vincejr said:
In short, the presence of Ca (calcium) and Mg (magnesium) increase LSPI where as Mo (moly) and P (phosphorous) do the opposite and both decrease LSPI. However my understanding is that Ca is needed as a primary detergent and anti rust compound.

Not really. Don't focus on the formulas but rather on the test results and compare the Ca:Mg ratios for the oil compositions that failed LSPI evaluation, passed LSPI evaluation but still produced LSPI events and then oil compositions that passed.

It's easy to see that high Ca is still the key factor, with Mg being a substitute that in equal or greater concentrations than Ca actually provides anti-LSPI properties (neutralizes Ca's negative effect). They even mention a few times that Ca is considered optional (as long as Mg (or even Na) is present to provide detergency/anti-rust functionality).

E9C900A

· #195 · Jun 14, 2017 (Edited)

More synopsis here:
http://www.velosterturbo.org/forum/showthread.php?t=12107&p=559393

As far as how this research relates to PUP, it's interesting that all oil analyses I've seen for PUP show a high volume of Ca with low levels of Mg, Mb & P, yet they claim PUP is already GF-6-compliant. Perhaps Shell found their own relational expressions/formulas that are quite different than ExxonMobil and Toyota's, yet produce a similar overall anti-LSPI benefit.

It somewhat gives me a feeling that either Shell discovered a method/formula of utilizing high Ca content without its negative LSPI-producing effects, or they're BSing us.

Isn't chemistry fun?

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vincejr

· #196 · Jun 16, 2017

E9C900A said:
More synopsis here:
http://www.velosterturbo.org/forum/showthread.php?t=12107&p=559393

As far as how this research relates to PUP, it's interesting that all oil analyses I've seen for PUP show a high volume of Ca with low levels of Mg, Mb & P, yet they claim PUP is already GF-6-compliant. Perhaps Shell found their own relational expressions/formulas that are quite different than ExxonMobil and Toyota's, yet produce a similar overall anti-LSPI benefit.

It somewhat gives me a feeling that either Shell discovered a method/formula of utilizing high Ca content without its negative LSPI-producing effects, or they're BSing us.

Isn't chemistry fun?

Indeed fun!

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turbofist

· #197 · Jul 18, 2017

X any news on the OCC testing, or when it will be available. Tried to message you but for some strange reason, couldn't.

Bigbird

· #198 · Jul 18, 2017

Incase anyone goes looking for it, all the PepBoys stopped carrying in my area, not sure about nation wide.

leesrt

· #199 · Jul 18, 2017

Bigbird said:
Incase anyone goes looking for it, all the PepBoys stopped carrying in my area, not sure about nation wide.

How dare you bring this back on topic...lol.

I bought a couple of the Quaker State oil to cover me until this PUP thing settles down.

TooGqForYou

· #200 · Jul 18, 2017

i picked up some PUP 2 weeks ago at my local pep in Ventura, Ca. I'll go by today and see if they still carry it.

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